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Real Talk FUMC Pearland
Welcome to “Real Talk", a podcast with an increased intentionality on having honest conversations about faith, church and the real conflicts that surround the complicated realities of today. We invite those who are curious, cautious and considering faith into deeper conversations, even if we don't always agree.
Real Talk FUMC Pearland
Dividing Lines w/ Rev. Reggie Clemons and Bishop Cynthia Fierro Harvey
Amidst the immense division that is running rampant in our world today, that division also arrives in the church. Join in for a conversation about the cause of division, Jesus’s alternative offering and how we might begin to live more unified today with Pastor Thea, Pastor Reggie and Bishop Harvey.
This Episode Topics Include
When and how was faith introduced into your life?
How does faith influence your understanding of division today?
Over what issues have you seen the church divide (shallow and deep)?
What would you name as the reasons for this divide?
What have you learned from witnessing such deep differences?
Where are you hopeful for unity despite differences?
Is division and differences okay, normal and natural?
How do we individually/collectively move toward unity, despite differences?
Join the Conversation:
Reach out to the guest and/or hosts by emailing:
theac@fucmpearland.org or rclemons@fumcpearland.org.
Visit www.fumcpearland.org to learn more.
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Welcome to Real Talk, a podcast where we strive to have honest conversations about the difficulties and realities of faith. Today I'm your host, Thea, and today I'm joined by Reverend Reggie Clemens and Bishop Harvey and Reggie, I want to invite you to introduce yourself first, kind of your role, and then we'll have Bishop introduce herself and tell us what a bishop is Sure Thea.
Speaker 3:thank you and Bishop, welcome. So glad that you're here. I'm Reggie Clemens, the senior pastor at First United Methodist Church, paralyn, and just excited to be in your presence today.
Speaker 2:Aren't you kind? I'm Bishop Cynthia Fierro Harvey. I am the resident bishop here in the Texas annual conference and I'm privileged and honored to be here with you and to be your guest today. What does a bishop do? Oh, my goodness. What does a bishop not do is probably would be an easier answer. The bishop is, you know, is responsible for the temporal and the faith of the annual conference and the vision of the annual conference, the administration of the annual conference, sorted to order, if we go to what. I'm an elder, just like the rest of you, but I am an elder in the United Methodist Church and I am called to order the life of the church and I am called as a bishop, consecrated as a bishop, to order the life of the church.
Speaker 2:A lot of what we do feels a little like human resources. Right is to put the right pastors in the right places and to make sure that, in fact, we are making what we would call a mission field appointment. That is, one of the authority that the bishop has is to appoint, and so placing the right people in the right places in the right mission field is pretty critical, especially today, more so than ever before. So we do a lot of things. Sometimes there are things that no one ever told us that we would do, but I think that's kind of the world we live in today. For all pastors, we're doing some things that we never thought were anywhere in our wheelhouse, if you will.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thank you again for taking the time to be here today. We really are both super appreciative and I'm sure our listeners will be as well to dive into a conversation about division that we do experience, not only in our world today but in the church. But I want to start and for you to just share a little bit more about how faith was introduced into your life.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, I don't know that I've ever had a life without faith. I grew up in a family that I grew up very Roman Catholic. I say very. That's a very important question. I always say I'm a great Catholic, therefore I'm a great United Methodist. I grew up in a community in El Vario, surrounded by my family Never remember a babysitter, and so church and faith and family were really wrapped into everything that we did. I remember as a child.
Speaker 2:we lived in the parish, just a few blocks from the church. My family didn't own a car and we would walk to church and at one point my grandmother lost her sight. One of my roles as a member of the family as a child was to walk my grandmother to church, so I never remember a time where faith wasn't a part of everything that we did.
Speaker 2:Now growing in faith because I don't believe. I don't believe that God calls us once and for all, but God calls us time and again. So I believe that my faith, as I grew as an adult and then began to question, ask a lot of questions. I ask a lot of questions, ask my family. I ask a lot of questions and started to ask a lot of questions of myself, of the Catholic Church, of my friends that were in other faith communities, and I'm a lifelong learner. I think that's probably why I ask a lot of questions. So I think my faith grew. There were times that it's it. It's ebbed and float right and depending on what was happening in my life and in the world sometimes, but I don't ever remember a time where faith, family and that sense of community wasn't a part of my life. I have no memory of that.
Speaker 1:You kind of have a similar faith story, Reggie, with growing up.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you actually you're taking me back to my grandmother in Longview, texas, going to Pleasant Green Missionary Baptist Church and walking to church, which wasn't in the same neighborhood, but we walked anyway, because she didn't have a car, so and just growing up and I was always being around people of faith and of great faith and my mom and and what they did and and I can't say that I'd always stay connected.
Speaker 3:But what speaks to me is what you said is that we, you know, was going to church and a part of a church, but actually really creating an understanding of life of faith on my own and the calling from God is a totally different thing than just going to church.
Speaker 2:It is it is, and you know I think that's some of our role that we play as pastors is you can go to church, but how deep is your faith?
Speaker 3:in that.
Speaker 2:And and I went through that period, you know, as a teenager, where you know your mother wakes you up in the morning and you don't really want to go to church, but we had no option.
Speaker 2:It was it was not optional. You got up and you went to church and so some of that that's why I say I think I'm a pretty good United Methodist because I was a really good Catholic is those things that just weren't optional. And you get people there and somewhere. God is working in that, whether you know it or not, and I think that's how transformation sometimes happens. It would be great if it was a burning bush every time, but it doesn't happen that way.
Speaker 1:I think that idea that when people are together you're able to experience God a little bit more clearly I can definitely relate to that, though I did not grow up going to church regularly. I had some grandmothers who took me occasionally, but I find myself now in faith. Even on my Sundays off, or even I mean just this past Sunday, I was given the hey, you're okay, you don't take some time for you, and I just needed to be with people. I needed to worship, I needed to take that time and say this is an hour I'm going to give to God, I'm going to recognize, I'm going to receive and I'm going to see God reflected in the people around me. And so, even though it wasn't disciplined in me as a child or growing up, I find myself still longing for that. The same. When I'm on vacation, I'm like, well, let's go find a local church, let's go worship, let's see what they have, let's spend this time and see how God might show up in those ways.
Speaker 2:And I think that I mean that's what community really is, and that sense of being with people, the energy that sometimes you have to borrow from somebody else when you don't have it, the faith that we borrow from one another when we don't have it.
Speaker 3:It doesn't.
Speaker 2:You know? I always say that. You know this isn't a singular. You know this thing that you do from the, you know from the stands, if you will, you've got to really be in that place with people. It doesn't happen in isolation.
Speaker 1:I would agree, I would agree. But how does this understanding of community and desire of faith seen in community, how does that influence your, your reality of division today and where you see that happening.
Speaker 2:You know it's, it's a the whole. Sometimes we are divided on things that are, in the eternal scheme of things. I wonder really how much it really matters right, and being in a community, a family and if you haven't heard me talk about my, my family, my mother and the sense of table and you will but my home was always the place where we gathered around table. It was the my mother was could make more out of a potato than anybody. I didn't. You know, I ever knew. If you dropped by any time of the day or night, you would get usually a cup of coffee, an iced tea, a Coke and something to eat. She'd be scrambling something together, right, and the sense of gathering around table, even when we didn't agree. And that was family, that was not family.
Speaker 2:I remember clearly the first time I was dating my husband at the time and he came with me for Thanksgiving to my family home and you know it's a typical Hispanic home, everybody's talking loud and arguing and and we disagreed on stuff we walked away from the table. And he's like how do you do that? Because we walk away from the table and we hug oh, mika, I'm so glad you're here, you know I love you and he's like how do you do that? I said it's because we love each other. We don't have to agree on everything, or we don't even have to agree on anything, but everything hinges on love. And so if you really believe in loving your neighbor and loving like Jesus loves, then I'm not sure, I'm not sure where division even fits in. That Now we could read scripture and read over and over about divisions, right, but always, you know, jesus talks about the greatest of these is love in every place.
Speaker 2:Paul talked about that. Jesus spoke about it. So I really believe that if we love, won't truly love one another. Some days I don't have to like you so much, but I don't have an option to love you.
Speaker 2:So I think that's why I struggle with division. I struggle with not really wanting to even understand where a person comes from. And sometimes you don't know that until you actually have a conversation where somebody will say you know, I just don't really like that Reggie Clemens, do you know him? No, I've never talked to him. Well, how do you know you don't like him? So it really is about sitting down and getting to know and listen to one another story. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I would agree. It's this of willingness to see a whole person and not an issue. And I think you're right that Jesus, always he sees the people. He doesn't see an illness, he doesn't see a class, he doesn't see even the betrayal or the hatred that's thrown at him.
Speaker 1:He sees a person you know and I think I can totally agree that if we could try a little harder to love like that and be willing to lean in, then those things that we think we need to be divided upon maybe won't be so important. Right, feel so big, they're not deal breakers. Yeah, yeah, what are some issues you've seen the church divide on, whether shallow or deep, and what would you name as the reasons? Why do you think we divide over those issues?
Speaker 2:Golly, we go all the way back to Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slave or free. I mean, we've divided over all of those issues and one thing that's, you know, we think right now that we're just divide. We've divided over LGBTQ matters, but and this really is important in this time in a, in this time in our history but if we go back and we go back to slavery, we go back to women, we go back. I mean, we don't even have to go that far, we don't even have to go that far.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, I celebrate every year loving day, you know, the day the lovings actually were able to get married and enter racial marriage, because I wouldn't have been able to marry, and it, you know, we've been married over, you know, over 40 years, and so it's like how is it that it wasn't that long ago that you couldn't do that in a racial marriage was illegal? Or, you know, we have divided over things over time that are painful and I, you know, I want to apologize sometimes for our past, especially as Methodists, as United Methodists, of some of the things that we have divided on. And you know, racism is just rampant in our world, anti-semitism, all of those things and it's just, it's so painful for me to even watch and at the same time I realize in some of those things the church has participated in, the church has participated in yeah.
Speaker 1:Particularly when it comes to those things like race or class or just you know, even, like you said, loving interracially. I mean what? What do you think the reason is? Why do you think we make those decisions?
Speaker 3:I don't know If I knew that I'd solve all these problems. I guarantee that. Yeah, you know. Obviously, as we talked about this before, fear is a great driver of a lot of things.
Speaker 3:We've developed certain cultures, certain expectations of people, the fear of the unknown about people. I agree with you when you were saying earlier that you know in terms of or or maybe you said this, bishop, I don't. How do you know you don't like someone if you've never talked to them, if you've never even had any experience with them whatsoever, how can you even make that determination? I like to say this thing that I truly try to live my life. You know God loves you, so I don't have a choice, and that's kind of the way I really feel about it, if that's really who we are to be.
Speaker 3:But we, we all know that there are factions that actually like to use this to get their own means come to things that they want done, so they can use these things to drive wedges between people because it accomplishes their goals, and I think that what we have to do is really step back and look at some things. There is much more, I believe, that connects us all than divides any of us. So if we can just get to the point where we've realized that and and not allow these factors that want to divide us to actually have any headway, then I think we'll be on the path to doing things in a better way.
Speaker 2:And I've asked people that like what are you afraid of? Yeah, what, what? And most of the time people can't answer the question. And so I find that, you know, truly fascinating that we make some assumptions about people and situations or whatever, and without really fully understanding or knowing. And it doesn't make me love you any less, but until we can really have a conversation of the things that matter, and I think, yeah, I think that the thing that maybe bothers me most is that some of those divisions make us feel like we don't matter.
Speaker 2:Like we're not seen, we're not heard, and so you know, if today's that present, you know, in our day, right now, lgbtq issues are what's facing us, people need to know that that they matter, yeah, that they matter, that they're important, that God loves you. You know God, god doesn't have this hierarchy of you know I'm gonna love this person and not that person. You know that's not how this works. Or that you know women were not heard, or that you know black people were not seen or heard. So I think that sometimes, like I said, what bothers me most is that that gives people a sense that they don't matter, and I think that's probably the most, you know, egregious part of this is that everybody matters. Yeah, everybody deserves to be heard, to be loved, and when we put you in a different category or a different, you know a line in the ledger, then what?
Speaker 3:we're saying to people when we do that.
Speaker 2:I've been othered enough in my life and you know that doesn't feel good. I mean, I really have sat in rooms where people have to check a box, like black white other. And I was the other box to be othered, really Othered. It's just like you don't matter, yeah, and, and sometimes just ignorance. Sometimes people just the context where they grew up doesn't allow them to know. You know it's like to know better.
Speaker 2:Right, and maybe that's our role is to help people understand and know better about what we're being called to be, not just in the church but, I think, in the world, in the communities that we serve. If we're going to truly transform the world, maybe our call is to make sure people know that God loves them and they matter yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as you talk about that, you know you matter, no matter our differences. I'm just drawn back to that dining room family table where my family was the same, you know loud over talking all of those kinds of things, and yet we would no matter. Who showed up could be an ex-boyfriend nobody liked he was welcome. It could be someone who spent time in jail recently they're welcome, you know. It could be someone who's so annoying with their opinions and views and personality, but they're welcome. And that there was always more and more room. My grandmother we had a joke, you know she'd always find another chair, another plate.
Speaker 1:You know, there's, there's so many people were, were welcome at that table. And then you you talk about not only can we, if we could figure out how to do this within our, within the church, but maybe don't waste time there, let's just do it out in the world. Right, if we can't figure it out amongst each other, let's at least start to do it out in the world where we can offer bigger tables, where more and more people are welcome, right, and and seeing and valued and said you're, you're a person, person worthy of care, right.
Speaker 2:Worthy of attention. You know, I don't fear a lot of things, but I I fear my mother coming up out of her grave and saying what are you thinking? You know, because that was so important in our family, and you're right. I mean all the people that most, most would, would throw away. Right, our, our, our job, our call is to bring them back to the table, add a chair, make the table bigger. I said you know, I want a table with lots of leafs that you can just keep adding people to it. There's always always space, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you say that, I just think about how you know Jesus made a space for me.
Speaker 3:when I just should have been thrown away too.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think sometimes that we believers almost forget that. We forget that we've been welcomed in, that we've been given this whole new idea, and so there's a piece to of like. Can can you remember your acceptance, with all of your reasons, to be divided out and pushed to the side and yet. Jesus makes a space for you and the heavenly and eternal kingdom here and to come. I mean this, I mean now. How can you not? Yeah?
Speaker 2:exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you believe that's true.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And maybe that's a piece of it. It's hard to believe that we've been made welcome at the table. And so if we start to divide the lines and draw lines of who else can't come, we'll feel a little bit more secure about our own place. Right, I'm better than that we want to draw the line right after us. And I always say if there's lines. I'm not making a point.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna nope, I'm not getting there. No no yeah how.
Speaker 1:Where have you seen, maybe, this type of moving past the division and into unity and where does that give you hope? Where do you see it actually happening and where do you find hope?
Speaker 2:You know I have to use this over and over Annual conference for us. Last year was one of those moments. I've been to many annual conferences of the Texas annual conference and that sense of unity, that sense of close to oneness I think as humans can get. I'm beginning to experience that the resolution that we passed about how we will be with one another From my seat it's almost unanimous when nobody went to microphone number one to even ask a question, to argue a point or to point something out. I kept waiting, I kept, really I kept waiting and I turned to my colleague that was with me. I'm like, okay, here it comes, here it comes. And it never came and it was just a beautiful moment in time.
Speaker 2:I hope it's repeatable and scalable and that's what I'm hoping for and a sense of that we're all rowing in the same direction and everybody's oars in the water. And if we could continue to do that. That's what gives me hope. Being with young people today also gives me extraordinary hope and that's why we're doing Confirmanday Shameless plug here for Confirmanday, but there's just something about bringing six or so six graders together who are just excited to be together, and just that for me is if I could spend all my time doing that, and then I will say, every time I stand before a class of ordinance, and especially in the last several years, or those to be licensed as local pastors, they know what they're getting themselves into and they say, yes, god is still calling people, and God is still calling people.
Speaker 2:So I think our best days, frankly, are ahead. The world is crazy. I mean the world's upside down, and lots of things happening Wars, rumors of wars, political wars, all kinds of things. Even there's never been a more important time for us to be the church, to be the church, and so my hope is that the Holy Spirit is going to work in and through us in ways that we haven't even begun to imagine, because this is a moment in time that we cannot waste. We cannot waste this, and I keep using the word squander. We can't squander this moment, and if the church is going to be the church, it's now.
Speaker 3:It is now.
Speaker 2:So that gives me hope to see signs of some of that emerging in faith communities and, to come from this morning, I was at a nonprofit that feeds 5,800 meals a week. Well, that takes a lot of people to make that happen, and so things like that give me great, great hope. Churches who are actively working in their communities, who are leaving their pews to make sure that the community is served that gives me great hope. So I think we're starting to see that, the hope and pray that we're starting to see that the role of the church in this context, in this time, in this day and age, has to be different. Jesus said go out into all the world, not go into the church. And so I'm just, let's just keep going out into the world.
Speaker 1:What about you, reggie, especially at the local church level? Where are you seeing the hope toward unity or what you'd like to see?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm very hopeful because of some things. I've seen just where the church and people in the church are realizing that it is time to stand up and be the church, that there is not as much of a country club atmosphere, or we're in it for us, or this is our stuff and you're welcome to it, but you need to use it the way we use it and you need to do what we do. I'm not seeing that as much, at least in our church Well, and to some extent it's not as allowed as much in our church. But I think that there is a desire and, bishop, you know, you and I have talked about this. It's like we've been through some stuff, we've dealt with things and we've all gone through the stuff, and it's also like what's next? What's next for our faith in terms of what we do and how we do it. We're embarking on some energy and effort to create some just getting outside and doing things outside. That's not the typical stuff that we've done for over a hundred years. We're really excited about that. But where I am hopeful in this moment is that there are people that are willing to hear, they're willing to have conversations with one another with integrity. There's a feeling amongst people that we can have those kind of conversations like you talked about. Well, we may not always agree, but yet we can still love. They're willing to do this and people are maybe getting over the understanding of how church has been to how church can be.
Speaker 3:I wanted to we're in this sermon series and it'll be dated by the time we actually air this but we began this year with a series what we Believe to try to talk about. These are some things we believe, despite what people may say you believe. And then I remember saying in the first sermon, saying that one of the things that I know is that nobody can tell you what you believe. You know what you believe, so let's talk about that. So I think as I'm kind of at this point people are willing to really talk and we've had this experience personally, the and I, throughout last year, where that was just such a willingness to just be led and just take us where we need to go and give us your vision and we can do that.
Speaker 3:And so I think, if we're willing to do that and my greatest fear is that there would be this desire to become complacent again and go back to doing what things that we have done. But let me tell you something where I have hope. I have hope because I know you and you're not like that. I mean you, you're not going to let us do that. In fact, I would probably say that as soon as you see that, you will address it right off the bat. So that gives me a lot of hope, and I'm not wrong about you, am I?
Speaker 2:I know but I hope you'll hold me accountable to that that when we see signs of complacency, we're going back to comfort, because I think that's that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:We kind of like to be comfortable. Nobody likes to be uncomfortable, so we have very short memories about this. You know, I call it theological amnesia, but it where we actually forget where we came from. We forget what we're called to do, sometimes because the world's just pressing in upon us and so I'm hoping that I can see it. I asked a friend one time. I said could you just help me see what's coming? And my friend said that would be a profit. So I said, okay, well, to help me, teach me how to be a profit.
Speaker 2:Well, you are, that is one of your roles is to see these things, because if we could see it coming, could we, could we circumvent it?
Speaker 2:But I, you know I'm, I hope that we can also be respectful, sure, and I think that that that level of respect for humans is just, you know, that goes along. I would say respect and humility go a long way, and if we could live out our lives that way, I think the shift will happen, because changing the cultures it's a lot harder than changing. You know how many people come to worship in our world, right? So shifting a culture is a whole another ball game, and I think that's the. I think that's the hard work that's ahead for us is shifting a culture, and not just the church culture, not just a church culture, because I believe that if we start in the church, if so we change the person that goes out into the world, goes to work on Monday, downtown or something, and that's how, that's how change will happen. So we have to, you know, one person at a time, one person at a time.
Speaker 1:Well, is division and differences okay? Are they normal? And when we encounter them, what should we do to deal with them?
Speaker 2:I think they're normal, they're human beings.
Speaker 2:I would think I would call that normal. Are they okay? I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes they make us better. I thought I would never say this out loud and I'm kind of afraid to. I don't like what the last few years have been like for us, but I think we're better. I think we've learned our learning, currently learning a lot about ourselves, about what's important, about what matters, about what doesn't matter, and the eternal scheme of things. So, while I never would have, I never would want to relive the last several years and we're not, we're not finished right, and it's like I can't, we're not yet quite ready to stand around a circle and sing kumbaya, I don't think. But you know, I think we've been put through the fire and we're emerging more resilient, more confident about who we are. So in that way, you know, God doesn't waste anything.
Speaker 3:God never wastes anything.
Speaker 2:So this idea that you know, oh my gosh, we've just, you know, wasted all these years. I wish we hadn't been in it, but I believe God's going to use even that and use us in ways. So is division good? Oh no, but I do think that if it helps me better articulate who I am, why I am, who's I am out of that then I think we might be better, because when somebody challenges you and you're standing on your own two feet, what are you going to say? And I think I've had to really think about that. And there are times I've said some really awful things Father forgive me, for I have sinned because I've said some really bad stuff at times, because I just get so doggone, angry and frustrated. But it makes me really think about things very differently. And and doing no harm to people, I mean, I just don't ever want to set out every morning to do harm. Who does?
Speaker 1:All, right, yeah, I was thinking you're talking about. You know, yeah, it's, we've been through the fire and one. You know you come out forged. But also, how often in Scripture it's through a wrestling, it's through a tragedy, it's through a crisis that people are really made new and and, yeah, I think that is a part of that that God doesn't waste any anything and can use some of those toughest moments to actually make us into new people, change our name even and so I can see that too and that there's a, there's a possibility for something new, even out of maybe some of our at least our experience of the worst division we've, we've had in the church, to also to also clarify well, what do you believe, right? Right, if you aren't challenged, if you aren't forced to have tough conversations, then for many they. This was the first time they had to really think about what they believe and and decide where, where they wanted to, where they wanted to learn more about faith and what kind of community they want to be a part of. Is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a few weeks ago, one of my mentors died at the age of, you know, in his 90s. Great, if it was, if you could have fun at a memorial service. We had a wonderful time celebrating a life that was just so well lived. But one of the things that he was known for and I was the recipient of, you know, the beneficiary of, of this kind of just mentoring is he had us right, and I think this he's not the first one to do this, but our, I believe, statements. And when I was beginning to discern whether the Episcopacy was something that I should do, he sat with me and for hours and said you know, if you can't articulate what you believe, then perhaps you don't really need to do this. And it wasn't like I believe in God, the Father Almighty Maker. You know, it wasn't like a, it wasn't creedal, but what do you believe?
Speaker 2:Like what's the sword you are willing to die on here, and I still actually refer to them. You've, I've used them, I think, in my service of installation of what I believe and and he said if they're, if they're, if they really are what you believe, they will, they won't change. They might be refined but they won't really change. And those I believe statements are really important. So I think this this time has really returned. I've returned to those I believe, statements quite a bit of Just. You know, what is it that I really believe? If I really believe that everyone needs to be heard, that Everyone deserves to be loved, that I'm not God, that I'm a work in progress, I mean, I, I can tell you there's a whole. One of them is that when I was most out of control is when I had my greatest experience of God. So those, those I believe statements really are Formative and it's a great exercise. But it's not just an exercise, you know.
Speaker 2:It really is trying to build some muscle, you know in some ways, but it is really a way for us to articulate what. What is it that we really stand for?
Speaker 3:I want to ask you something. You've been here now a year, coming back home, which I know from what you said was a joy for you. Tell me how, how, what's your, what you're feeling about an experience like the last year being back home and what you've been called to do.
Speaker 2:You know I was just talking to a group earlier today about that I had to relearn Whole Annual conference. I had to relearn a lot of things. I had to also unlearn some things that I thought I knew About being home. It is great to reconnect with friends and, and you remember, I had a career before ministry right. So I have. I have my my secular life friends here as well as my church life friends. Some of them overlap but, for the most part.
Speaker 2:You know some of them. You know I have friends that you know they don't go to church and I think, by the way, every pastor ought to have some friends that don't don't do church. They really hold you accountable. Okay, they really hold you accountable. They hold your feet to the fire and and they just love you because you're you right.
Speaker 2:They don't. They don't really care that you've got an MDiv or that you're, you've got a license or you know a certificate on the wall. They don't care, they just love you for being you. So, returning to To the Texas conference, this is a very different conference, I mean, in many ways it was painful because I felt like half my family was gone.
Speaker 2:People that I was. You know I've traveled this journey with, ordained with, and went to seminary with, and all of those things. They're still here but they're not a part of my, my everyday life, and that that was painful. You know the certainly living in Houston again has been it's different. 12 years is a long time to be gone and you know it's not the city I left and it's more diverse than even was then and I thought it was pretty diverse then. So, returning home, you know they, they say you're. This isn't ever a good idea that you know. Going home, you're. You know, a stranger in your own hometown, and sometimes I am. I am the stranger and it's. Sometimes it's awkward to be in some places because I am the stranger in my own hometown. But Everyday, reggie, I Am more and more convinced this is exactly where I need to be right now.
Speaker 2:I've never worked as hard in my entire whole life.
Speaker 2:I Don't know that I've ever been invested in something like this in my entire whole life, and maybe it's because I'm, you know, a few years from my retirement. So it's, you know, this is my, my last lap, if you will. But there is just a sense and I said this in a lot of places when I was doing my little, you know, listening sessions that they could have sent any many bishop here, could have done a better job than I could do, but nobody would love this conference more than me. And this is a conference that called me, this is a conference that you know, ordained me. This is. I was part of the two-part ordination. I was ordained a deacon and ordained an elder, and this is this is my home. It's my spiritual home, not just my physical home. I've never lived urban, so that's been kind of different living in the city versus suburban. But this is, this is truly this is heart home.
Speaker 2:This is heart home and just returning to that and and some of the people that shaped and and formed me, that are still a part of that, are still a part of my life. It's, it's a pretty, it's a pretty sweet gig To be back and you know, sometimes, especially given what this conference has been through, people look at me almost like pity and I want to know no, no, no, no, no. This is like the best time in the world to be the bishop in the Texas conference. Amen, it is.
Speaker 1:It is really the best time ever to be here and.
Speaker 2:I'm just. You know it's different, we got different challenges, but you know, I kind of thrive on those kind of things anyway. So Some days I feel like I'm putting Humpty Dumpty back together again.
Speaker 2:But it's, but, I'm putting back together something I love, something I love and people I love and so If I can resettle an anxious system and this time that that's my prayer every day can I resettle an anxious system not to return it to what it was? Because I'm not even sure. Even in its heyday we ought to go back there, right? You know that sometimes going back To what we thought was really great Isn't wasn't that great? So I don't know that we want to go back to something but, I, think we can.
Speaker 2:God does make us new, but sometimes we have to go through the fire, through the anvil, through the you know. Think of all the beautiful things that come out of fire. Yeah, and I just think maybe we're kind of the the phoenix here being proven by the fire. Thank you for that. What would be one piece of hope you'd offer to someone struggling with division today?
Speaker 1:I don't know if it would out of this, would come home. I don't know if it would come home.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it would come home I don't know if it would out of this would come home To not To lean into it versus go against it. That would be a hope, because I I think when you come close to it, you lean into it. You really learn something new, new, you're made new, new things are revealed to you. If you, it's I, sometimes it's more painful to avoid it. Now I'm I'm not a conflict avoidant person, so that's easy for me to say yeah and just jump right in, because I don't avoid conflict. But sometimes it's more painful to walk away from it than to lean into it. At least Listen in. If you can't lean in, at least listen in. For what's you know what? What am I learning? What am I supposed to be learning here? Because if you know, if you it's that you know fleeing thing. That sometimes isn't so good for us.
Speaker 2:But I also realize that that's not the way everybody deals with it, and maybe that's the other thing, and it's kind of kind of like grief it is. Grief is everybody has a different way of grieving. There's no wrong way, there's no right way, there's only your way. And how many times have we said that to grieving families or something like that? So I just wonder if, out of this, the hope is that we will be better people in the long run. So it's hard to talk about what might be hopeful out of division other than being made new again. To me would be pretty awesome. Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 3:I don't know. Now I'm taking over your podcast here. You're the moderator now. I think sometimes division and I certainly think it's done so in this season it can offer an opportunity to find clarity. It can truly make you say, well, okay, if this was really the problem, then exactly where am I and exactly what do I hold to be true and exactly what do I believe. So it can offer that clarity to say, yeah, I can stand on this because I'm okay with this and I can move forward. So to me, it may enable you to get rid of some of the cloudiness of existence you were in and didn't even know you were in.
Speaker 3:I can truly tell you that's what it's done for me. I was able to say, as we went through everything we did, I said you know, church, you've got to make a decision about what you need to do, and whatever you need to decide does not need to be determined based upon where I am. But I know where I am and this has actually helped me even understand that. So I do think that that's one of the things. If I can say that there was anything that truly was beneficial for having to deal with this, it would truly be that clarity of vision for me.
Speaker 2:I agree, I've seen that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. I would also agree with the leaning in. I think when we're again able to see a whole person instead of an issue, we really have the opportunity for a new relationship. I've seen that happen in me. Odds are, if I have a coworker who I'm kind of bumping heads with a lot, I think, okay, you know what? I actually don't know this person very well. I'm coming with all these assumptions on why he or she is not doing what I want them to do, and usually it's a let's go to lunch, let's get to know you as a real person. Let me get some meat on this so that I'm not so, I'm not just seeing the problem in front of me or this place where we're different.
Speaker 1:And even again, you know, back to last year, and the community I was a part of that did decide to leave. I had to hold some space of who they are and what they were trying to hold onto you and what they were scared to lose as the world was changing faster than they could imagine and that they still just wanted a little piece. That was just like it had always been and I was, though I didn't agree with that decision, I could. It could free me from some of the anger and resentment and feeling upset that we didn't agree on the situation, but it also could free them. Okay, do what you need to do, and again, I'm clear on what I'm gonna do. And if we wouldn't have had this, you know place where we are different, then maybe both of us wouldn't be as free as we are now.
Speaker 2:That's why I love freest for joyful obedience. And that doesn't. That's not mine, that's for me, right. So if somebody feels like they can say this has freed me to be joyful and obedient, free us for joyful obedience, not just free us for obedient. Free us for joyful obedience. I mean that to me is, you know, just so important in these situations where we don't agree. But you do, you go, do you? And let's not I don't wanna speak ill of you for being you.
Speaker 2:And let's both be free and joyful. Free for joyful obedience. I mean those words are man, they're powerful words more. You know some of that liturgy. I mean that's your background, reggie. I mean I read this, you know, and it's like I've said this 2 million times and now I say free us for joyful obedience, or you know the liturgy, that's the work of the people, right, that's what liturgy and litany and all of that is supposed to be about. I read some of that now and it means the words are so much more powerful today there were stuff that I have actually been reading for years that started jumping off the page.
Speaker 3:I get that. I truly see them all say oh, it's not like you didn't understand it, it just took on a totally. It took an enhanced meaning, Not a different meaning, just an enhanced meaning. Like joyful obedience is what it is, but when you are actually living in an era of joyful obedience, it takes on a whole new meaning. So yeah, I totally get that.
Speaker 2:The you know I believe in God the affirmation of faith. I mean I stand there and it's like I cry every time she does.
Speaker 3:she cries every time she reads it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's like it's amazing. I was in a church recently where the Comfortmans wrote their own affirmation of faith and I, you know, I was like oh my gosh. You know it was sobbing because, it was so beautiful, contextual. But you know, I just think some of these words jump off the page today that I just sort of, you know, just read them and now I actually take them to heart.
Speaker 1:I want that. Thank you so much for this conversation. Oh, no, thank you. It has been truly refreshing and rewarding. Thank you as well, Reggie. If people wanted to connect with you, learn more, where can they find you? Oh, gosh, in my car mostly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can be one of those you know find friends, and they're all over the place.
Speaker 2:But you know, certainly and I am an accessible person it may not be today when you email me or text me or whatever, but if somebody emails me they're gonna get an email back. Somebody writes me a letter, they're gonna get a letter back. They call me and they're gonna get a phone call back. I don't respond to Facebook Messenger it's like that part of the social media platform and you can find me other ways. But they can just email. You know bishopstxcomorg and you'll find me there and I'm connected all of the time. So if I'm somewhere between here in Texarkana or Tyler or College Station or wherever, or anywhere across the United States.
Speaker 3:Come on, let's be real, if you're doing more than just Texas annual conference.
Speaker 2:I am. I'm about to maybe get freed some of that work. That's been just a privilege. Yes, it has Serving in the larger context of the Council of Bishops and the United Methodist Church. It's been a gift to me. I hope I've been a little bit of a gift to the church. I was the virtual president of the Council of Bishops for two years on Zoom.
Speaker 2:But you know, I try to be as accessible as I can to people and it's just. It's a great time to be here, so thank you. Thank you for the invitation Of course, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for being accessible to come and be a part of this and thank you for tuning in. We'll see you next time on Real Talk. Real Talk Podcast is produced by first United Methodist Church Pearland in collaboration with Pearland Podcast Studios, recorded here in Pearland, texas. We invite you to check out our website at fumcparlandorg to check out additional events and opportunities for you to engage in Real Talk about faith and relationships, and it is important to break it down.