%20(1).jpg)
Real Talk FUMC Pearland
Welcome to “Real Talk", a podcast with an increased intentionality on having honest conversations about faith, church and the real conflicts that surround the complicated realities of today. We invite those who are curious, cautious and considering faith into deeper conversations, even if we don't always agree.
Real Talk FUMC Pearland
Jesus & Judgement w/ Rev. Reggie Clemons
Together Pastor Reggie and Pastor Thea embark on an honest conversation about what Jesus says and models in regards to judgment, as well as how we are to live with and without judgment of others today.
Episode Discussion Includes
When and how was faith introduced into your life?
How does faith influence your understanding of judgment today?
How does the promise of “final judgment” impact your daily decisions?
What role do you understand you play in Jesus’ judgment of you and others?
How does your understanding of judgment bind you and/or free you?
Where do you see evidence of this truth, in your life and others?
What hopes do you have to share for those fearing God’s judgment today?
What steps are you taking now to help make those a reality?
What’s one piece of hope you would offer to anyone struggling with judgement today?
Join the Conversation:
Reach out to the guest and/or hosts by emailing:
theac@fucmpearland.org or rclemons@fumcpearland.org.
Visit www.fumcpearland.org to learn more.
Want more information about FUMC Pearland? Check us out at fumcpearland.org
Welcome to Real Talk, a place where we can have real conversations about faith and doubt with real people. I'm your host, thea, and I'm so glad that you tuned in today for another conversation with my colleague and friend, pastor Reggie, where we are going to talk about Jesus and judgment. So glad that you tuned in for this conversation. So, reggie, let's just jump into it. How does faith influence your understanding of judgment?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, thea, thanks a lot for us having this opportunity to do this again. I'm really enjoying this and I would say that for me personally, faith influencing my feeling about judgment I would honestly tell you that I actually consider and think more about my faith than I think about my judgment. I don't actually think about the fact that a lack of faith is going to produce some dire judgment against me or whatever. I just don't look at it like that. I look at it from the standpoint of my ability to truly believe and have faith in God, and certainly faith in Christ, I'll tell you, particularly in this season that we're in right now has actually overcome any thoughts I have about what happens if I don't do this. I'm truly looking forward to the journey with Christ eternally. That what happens if Christ is mad at me about anything?
Speaker 1:Yeah, One of my favorite things to kind of remind people with judgment is it's not always bad, the consequence isn't always negative, the rule is not always punitive right. And I remember early in my faith journey I read the Shack, which I know some people really claim that it's not appropriate and doesn't have any solid theological backing, but early in my faith journey it helped me. It helped me understand God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, in these personable ways that they're presented in the book. And the scene that really stuck out with me, especially when it comes to judgment, is when I think Mac has he's down in a cave and there is a judge sitting on a high seat and that judge is pressing and pushing and saying you know, which of your children will you give Right? Which of your children will pay the price of your sins, of their sins, of the mistakes in the world? Which one? And he's just pushing, the judge is just pushing, pushing, pushing. And Mac mistakes in the world, which one? And he's just pushing. The judge is just pushing, pushing, pushing and Mack finally says no, take me.
Speaker 1:And I thought I mean as again so young and naive in my faith, like that just hit me in such a way to help me understand what type of rule that I believe that God, through Jesus, offers us when it comes to judgment is that, yeah, you guys are not worthy, you make way too many mistakes and yet I'm willing to do what I need to do for you to be made whole, to be made real and to be offered a whole new life.
Speaker 1:That can seem maybe even like a simple view of judgment and God in judgment, but I know, for me, especially early in my faith, that was so helpful because I too had been taught and offered a God of punishment for so long. And even though I had heard those sermons and been to those events and kind of experienced God presented in that way, it always struck me of like really Really, On one hand you're claiming so much love and on the other you're quick with this, awful results if I don't fall in line, and I always struggled with that. And as I think about judgment too, like I guess I'm kind of thinking of the judgment pendulums, right, Like the symbol for justice of the kind of scales scales don't know what that word is the scales and how.
Speaker 1:What if the judgment is that the fact that they're not even is no longer an issue, right, that our goodness doesn't have to outweigh our bad, or that our bad is going to be the only thing that's seen? That what if the judgment is somehow this idea of justice and balance, or at least where, again, all that negative is not the only thing that matters?
Speaker 2:You know, I think it's really interesting, particularly as you point out the book the Shack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I read that book right after it first came out and certainly saw the movie and pointed out all the discrepancies between the book and the movie.
Speaker 2:But really thinking about it like that and as you talk about the scales or whatever, and so it's almost as if, rather than as we would typically use a scale to see how much we're getting, what weighs more, whatever, what if they're more of a depiction and representation that both these things exist, that we would be going through this in life, that even in that movie, in the scene that you talked about. This is pretty much where you may be. There sometimes are decisions to be made, difficult decisions. I am very fortunate at least I think I'm fortunate that I grew up in an environment, a church environment, that didn't really focus on good and bad, I think, to some extent, particularly growing up when I did as a child and going to elementary school and junior high school or whatever you realize that well, if you don't do what you're supposed to do, it's probably going to be some punishment, and so you deal with that or whatever.
Speaker 2:In fact, there was a lot of stuff that maybe was done then that is illegal now Okay, you can't even do that anymore. But I think from my church experience it really didn't focus on the punishment. It more focused on the desire to want to do good because it was the right thing to do, to want to be a member of the body of Christ and actually acknowledge that and then do your part to uphold your contribution to the body to be that, because that's what Jesus was. I think, really what's really interesting in the season that we're in now for Easter, that we understand that when it says that Jesus paid the debt when he died for our sins, he is dying so that we don't worry about some of the stuff that we worry about today and I think we lose that in the whole resurrection story that in essence, we shouldn't even be focusing on that anymore. We should be focusing on all the things that he tried to teach us in terms of how we could become what we were originally entitled or determined to be. We have that ability to do that because he has taken all this other stuff away, so that we don't have to worry about that Now why we as human beings still determine that we need to worry about. That is, beyond me, somewhat of an enigma to me, actually, with all the good that we can truly do and be even recognizing some things that actually happen in the world, even recognizing that it's not all good that actually happens to us or that we are part of, yet we still have an ability to recognize that we are absolved from that and to live into that rather than live into what would happen. One of the things that truly has always fascinated me just about who we are as people, as we think about these concepts of doing things because you're supposed to do it. This was pretty much our teaching. This is what we learned from Jesus.
Speaker 2:I came to basically say that's not what the intent was in all of this. So we think about all the stuff that we even do now that our heart isn't in it. I actually use this analogy a lot, particularly in Bible studies that we have speed limits. We have a speed limit on the beltway. That speed limit is 65. And most of us would say 65 is too slow, okay, but I say I need to do this because this is what I'm supposed to do. I don't like doing it.
Speaker 2:In fact, the real intention of having these guidelines and rules is to actually get us to the point of understanding why they're there, so that we can embrace it and say this is making all of us safer. And I'm supposed to get to a point where I want to do it. If I'm really thinking in a concept of judgment, then I'm not going to think about it that way. It's going to actually more lead me to the thinking of how many things can I do and not get caught? So I'm like, no, I don't think that's what the intent was, so that's why I don't really focus on that. Very fortunate that I didn't grow up in that type of church environment where we did more focus on who we're supposed to be as people recognizing the things that are going to happen to us and that have happened to us. Yet how can you overcome that? How can you get beyond that and be who God called you to be?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I know for me that lack of focus on judgment in a negative and punitive way that I had experienced as a teenager and younger, that when I came into the United Methodist Church it was all about this grace, all about the goodness, the love of God that was bigger and better than anything that I might have done or would still do, and that was so refreshing.
Speaker 1:It was so welcoming and it made me feel wanted and loved instead of awful that I already felt. I already felt awful and I didn't need anybody else to give more reasons for that, and so it was that lack of focus on the negative and the focus on the good that really, I know, kept me and drew me in and wanted to learn more about these people who seem to be more focused on that piece of it, and I would argue that it is focusing on the judgment as not necessarily a negative rule. That's, more of the judgment is you're loved. I love what you said about the scales, that they're both there. I see your sin and your glory and I welcome all of it.
Speaker 1:All of it can come forward to me when you think about judgment. You know, and, like you said, they're both there, and the good and the bad. And even these guidelines that are offered to us, I agree, are designed for safety and for the wellness of community right Beyond ourselves. I can drive way faster than 65. I can. It's not good for everybody else, you know, and if we all did it, it's not good for everybody else and if we all did it, it would really be with an issue.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that would look like.
Speaker 1:Exactly. But what about this idea of final judgment and what does that really mean and how does that influence day-to-day right now? And when I mean final judgment of you die, final judgment of you know you die and are you at pearly gates and your life again?
Speaker 2:put on the scale and, if so, how does that affect you know, today? So I do believe that we will be there waiting on us. I personally don't live my life from the aspect of the things that I am going to do, and then there's going to be a measure when I meet Jesus Well.
Speaker 2:I've actually likened it to. At some point we're all going to be standing in front of Jesus alone with our DVDs running in the background, and then he'll know exactly everything about us, because he'll see our entire life. But I don't have this perspective or concept that at the end of the day, a gavel will come down and it will be a count how many good things, how many bad things. Okay, I don't perceive that. Now, I do think that's what we do.
Speaker 2:I think that's how we look at it, because that's what we would do. That's how we measure things. I think it's very difficult for people to understand that there are a lot of ways that I feel right now, today, that we look at things and Jesus looks at things that are totally different that we don't necessarily have the ability to even have a great understanding of seeing things the way Jesus sees things, even seeing us.
Speaker 2:So we have to ascribe our feelings to it, because that's all we know, that's the only thing we know how to do. So I do not think in terms of this great final judgment. I'll be very honest with you when I'm talking to people about the ability that we will have to truly be before Jesus, I have more of a conversation about eternity than I do about judgment.
Speaker 2:I have more of a conversation about this ability that God has to basically take these people that he has created, that he loves, and actually say this is what your eternity is. I guarantee you that there are certainly things we know. We basically read the Bible. We understand how God wants us to live here on earth among each other, and we all know that we fail sometimes at that miserably or whatever. But I still think that's God's desire for us and I think it actually made me more of a conversation of I'm really sorry that this is the way you did this. I really wish you hadn't done it this way.
Speaker 2:But again, I do not expect Jesus in the final time that I'm standing before him. I don't think Jesus is going to look at something the way I would. Yes, I think he's going to look at it in a much different and greater perspective than I ever could and I'm going to truly, at some point in that moment, I'm going to come to Jesus' way of thinking and that's how I'm going to approach my eternity. That's kind of how I see it Now. You know, honestly, do?
Speaker 1:any of us know, come on.
Speaker 2:I don't know anyone that's actually been there and can tell me okay, this is what's going to happen. Don't even know if I trusted if anybody did tell me that. But the fact of the matter is is that I read the Bible, I read Scripture, I understand stuff, and I look at how Jesus tended to approach some folks that you would say, if there's anyone that's going to truly be just eradicated from the planet, this would be the person. This would be that person. And it didn't happen.
Speaker 2:That's not what happened in that situation, and it was always about repentance. It was always about truly follow me. It was always about transformation in terms of all these ultimate destinations that he was trying to get everybody to get to. And I'm like saying at that point, if we could just see Jesus that way, would we even worry about this? I can guarantee you this. I do not spend a whole lot of time thinking about the fact that if I don't do this, then I'm going to end up in the lake of fire. That's not even in my bailiwick of thinking about anything. I know that that, to some extent, is how a lot of people have been brought up and a lot of things that have been taught and a lot of feelings that people had. So I'm not even being critical of any of that and I don't want you or anybody else to hear that, because you asked me what I thought.
Speaker 2:I actually am more looking forward to the day that it's actually me and Jesus and being with Jesus and actually facing my eternity. Yeah, and an eternity with Jesus. I'm more concerned about that. I am certainly remorseful and sorry for any things that I have done that I'm not proud of or that are wrong, but I'm not looking at it from the standpoint of judgment.
Speaker 2:I'm looking at it from the standpoint of that. I should know better, I've been taught better, jesus wants better for me, or whatever, and so if there's anything about pain from judgment, it is the judgment or the pain and the remorse that I'm feeling because I've disappointed Jesus in this moment. I don't know, but I of did you pass the test or?
Speaker 2:did you fail or whatever, and I think that's just what we apply to Right, Because that's what we apply to everything. That's what we apply to everything. It's like if I get a speeding ticket on the beltway, if I get pulled over by a constable and he says you were driving 80 in a 65 or whatever, my disappointment is not because I broke the law, my disappointment is that I got caught. Come on. So, I think that's we got to change that way of thinking. We really do.
Speaker 1:You said something about. We think that's how it's going to be, because that's how we would make it be, and I just 100% agree that so often, way too often, we make God in our image instead of remembering we're made in God's image and it's all we have. All we have is our own experience, our own language, our own imagination in order to assume and to decide what we think these things are going to be like. But you're right, because, as you were saying that, that's how we do it. Yeah, and when you have an employee who has things they're supposed to do and they're not doing them, you sit down and you go okay, they messed up here, here and here, but they do this, this and this, and you hope that the good weighs out the bad. Right, you hope it does. And and in some cases, that's what keeps them there and gets them one more chance Right, but often, if the, if the negatives outweigh the good, well, it's time to make a change, right? And again, that's not bad. You got a business to run, you got things to do, you got to move on. I love an old boss I had coach him up, coach him out, help him figure out what's the best next place for them. But again, that's the way we perceive things, and it makes sense to us to imagine that when we die, we arrive at an entrance of some sort and there's someone there who verifies our credentials, right, who says, yep, you are on the list. And if there's a question about our access, that maybe we're hoping for judgment, we're hoping that we can tip those scales into our favor, because this makes sense to us.
Speaker 1:And, as you were talking too, I thought about how we have such vivid images and, again, imaginations, possibly because no one's been there and can tell us about it, about what not heaven might look like. We can go into deep detail, right, I can. A string of movies and pictures are running through my head right now, and yet heaven, this eternal, perfect union with God, is it's harder. I mean, I've got a few images in my head that come to mind and probably because they're the most recent ones I've seen, but there is not a consistent message there, there is not consistent imagery, there is not a picture I can go to and feel firm on, and so there may be also this well, I know quote what the negative might be, and so I'll focus there versus.
Speaker 1:I wonder what it'd be like to imagine more fully what a judgment of full acceptance really looks like. You know, and we talk a lot because we actually lead multiple congregations who worship differently right. And when we talk a lot because we actually lead multiple congregations who worship differently right. And when we get a chance to all worship together, we say this is how it's going to be. Y'all, we're not going to be divided in heaven by who likes to hear a choir and who'd rather have a band, right, like that's not going to happen and more and more to like find places where I think this is the kingdom of heaven. I think this is what it's going to be like Because, again, I think we get a little. We don't have as many images to just pull easily on what that might look like.
Speaker 2:You know, the Bible does, though, have images of heaven looks like, you know streets of gold and you know pearly gates and different things. So we've got some of that imagery, and again it just it almost blows your mind that you know, if you just think about what does your utopia look like? You know that could have been going on then, I don't know. But what does your utopia look like?
Speaker 2:My utopia, my picture of heaven might be you know what, just laying on a beach looking out over the water, and again, if I were creating heaven, that might be what I'd create, because that just speaks to me. Interesting though, one of the things that I think does become a hang-up for people to where it is necessary to create some type of big system of almost eternal punishment is, again something that Jesus spoke to over and over and over again, and particularly when you talk about grace, people sometimes just don't think they're worthy.
Speaker 2:They don't think that they're worthy of the goodness that God would provide, because we all know what we've done, so we don't think they're worthy. There was an old, old episode I'm an older guy, so there was an old episode of the Twilight Zone where this guy goes somewhere and he's talking to this guy and he's actually saying that he's dead now and this guy is basically putting whatever he wants he's giving him. He's giving him everything. He wanted a pool table, he wanted a bigger house, he wanted all this stuff. And he's getting all this stuff and he actually thinks he's in heaven because he's able to get all this stuff that he wants in his heart's desire or whatever.
Speaker 2:And he starts having this remorse and guilt about it because he knows he hasn't lived that life or whatever. And so he finally goes up to the angel, I guess, or whoever this character is and says you know, I can't stay here, I don't deserve this, I need to go to the other place. And the guy starts laughing and he said this is the other place. And I'm like saying you know, it's kind of like I don't think any of this is going to be how we imagine it. I don't even know. We can't. We can imagine it, but we don't know. But the fact of the matter is.
Speaker 2:I just think it's know, but the fact of the matter is I just think it's going to be glorious, because I think living in the company of Jesus is a glorious future and that's the future I envision for me, wherever it's placed, because I can't think of any place that, if Jesus is there, that I would not want to be, I could not get used to.
Speaker 2:I could not just say, okay, this is where I live now and I think I'm more thinking about that. My whole governor of my life is not a governor of judgment or vengeance or what could happen to me. It's more of a governing what I do and how I do it, because of the love that is provided to me and the grace that is provided to me and the teaching that I understand. This is how I need to live, because this is going to make it best for me and best for everyone else. And, as you know, we talk about pretty much every week. If we are blessed to be a blessing when we live our lives to bless others, we are going to reap more of that benefit than we could ever imagine. So I'm probably going to more focus on that and probably try to lead people into that type of living and that type of life.
Speaker 1:You said that for some people, this almost desire for judgment. I would agree that there are people who maybe desire the belief that somebody is going to get punished, because that helps them feel a little bit better about themselves. Right, we love to compare, I mean. This is, I believe, why social media is a craze. I get to see everybody everywhere and make a judgment and so to think, for some people, needing to know for sure that there's even people they don't know, being judged helps them maybe affirm their own judgment of at least a little better than that right At least I'm not like them.
Speaker 1:And so, again, I think that is again a human creation, a human, normal, natural. It's a part of who we are, but it's maybe more of a human creation to make us feel a little bit better, because we know we're not worthy of the grace that we get. We know we don't deserve this amount of love. We know our deepest, darkest, most awful sins, even if we never have the courage to say them out loud or even pray about them, right, and so to kind of help us reconcile with our own stuff. You know, I know I'm guilty. Well, at least I'm not like them. I may be all these things, but I'm not that.
Speaker 1:And then you said that the Bible does give us depictions of heaven. And as soon as you said that I thought, right, genesis 1, the garden, a beautiful, lush place where everything you could ever need is provided. It doesn't even have to rain, moisture just shows up out of the earth. Right, there's no worry, no fear, no hunger, no need to be clothed or shielded or guarded, perfect union with God. And then I remind myself it's actually a song you introduced me to multiple years ago, of the song called Communion, that goes through this truth that it's first in the garden and now it's again in the life of Jesus. This is communion, that oneness, that beautiful, rich reality again now through Jesus, no matter all of the stuff in between that is completely illustrative of our own mistakes and trials and tribulations and fighting and isolation and loss and win and all of that right Relationships, all of that. But yet we still get this communion and maybe it's hard to accept because we're wanting the cherubs with the golden trumpets and the feathery white wings. We want that Like. It sounds beautiful.
Speaker 1:But what if it's right now, here? You know this oneness and it's, and it's a warm cup of coffee or a delicious, smooth, silky chocolate pie. Like what if it's with an old friend you know at your mother's dining room table that you still have? Like what if that's it? What an amazing thing that we could experience that judgment. You are worthy of that, right here, right now, no matter your sins, your past, your mistakes and again, what you talk about. That's what we preach every Sunday. You're worthy of this. It doesn't matter how much the scales are tipped in either way, that's right, you're worthy of this.
Speaker 2:I totally believe that I actually sit in the Bible study that we're doing right now. I said this yesterday, as we were kind of having this conversation about heaven or whatever, and I said something I believe. I said you know, I think that there are going to be people that are surprised who they see in heaven. Okay, they're going to be really surprised about that, I said. But the one thing that's interesting, you've got to be concerned about the fact that there may be people that look at you and they're surprised, wondering what you're doing here. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:Again, I think we may focus on that too much and what I actually feel it does is it may get us off track. It may get us to the point of, if we really think about Scripture, if we really think about different stories or whatever, these guys were getting ready to stone this woman. There was more of a concern for stoning her because of what she did. What I've always thought interesting about that story is the fact that there were two people that did it wrong. Only one of them was getting ready to get stoned, but that's a totally different story. But they were getting ready to stone her a totally different story, but they were getting ready to stone her and then Jesus pretty much says look at yourself in terms of what you're doing. You've actually made this distinction that she deserves this horrible punishment, yet based upon who you?
Speaker 1:are. Is anybody?
Speaker 2:worthy enough to throw this rock, and they all drop them and walk away.
Speaker 2:And so I'm like saying I think what he is saying keep in mind too. As she left, he said go and sin no more. He is not absolving her of what she's done. In fact, he doesn't want her living the kind of life that has even caused her to get to this moment. But yet he wants us to focus more on the grace that we're able to afford to people rather than the ability to be punitive to people. And so if you focus more on the grace that Jesus affords to us and that we can afford to others, doesn't that in and of itself make us better people? Doesn't it in and of itself show us that the way we're looking at things, in terms of how we would do things, is not what Jesus would do? So I live in that kind of life. I live in that kind of world that if I can just be every day the best that I can be, or whatever, I'm not focused on the judgment.
Speaker 2:No matter what happens, I'm still going to do and be the best I can be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree that it's an inability or not yet awareness on how to accept that much grace.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some people I know who will tell me, you know, I can believe in God. I think, yeah, there's got to be some great being that created all this. It's too vast, it's too amazing and I can believe that that being is of love and of goodness. But this idea that that being desires a relationship, or is offered a relationship, or even came in the flesh to be amongst us, like that's the part I get, you know, I'm okay, you know, and I think to myself, and maybe one day I'll have the courage to ask of do you think you don't deserve that? Because I know.
Speaker 1:For me, that's where I struggled for so long, again, when I was hearing this message of God as punishment and punitive. It didn't feel right. I didn't know much about God, but I didn't think that's who God was. And if I'm more honest, I realize that you know, if I believe that God has to be of love and goodness of immeasurable amounts, I'm not worthy of that. Who me?
Speaker 1:I know all my mistakes, I know all my faults and failures and I would think that even many who are willing to follow Jesus are still wrestling with that. I wrestle with it often, not me. Why do I get this kind of love. Why do I get this? Why is the judgment of Jesus toward me? You are accepted, why Not me? I have way too many reasons why that doesn't make any sense and I wonder if that's not where this need to kind of hold a tight grasp on punitive judgment is, because otherwise we would have to all accept this acceptance and this love and this goodness even for me, and if I'm going to accept it for me, I might have to believe others get it too.
Speaker 2:That, I think, becomes the stopping point. The stopping point If I don't, I may know that I'm not worthy, but I know other people that are less worthy than me. So if I, if you truly accept the whole construct of grace and that it is truly for everybody, then you have to basically then admit that it is truly for everybody. Then you have to basically then admit that it is truly for everybody. And there may be some other people, even if I'm bad, but I'm not as bad as that guy or whatever. Grace being available for all is something that I think. If we cannot embrace that, then we can embrace the fact that, therefore, if it's really not available to all, then there must be something that has to happen to the people it's not available to. There must be something that has to happen because if we're all, really it's almost like we think what I'm really doing, I'm living my life to obtain this grace, okay. We don't understand the fact that Jesus basically gives us this undeserved grace and he's not even asking us if we want it Come on.
Speaker 2:He has given it to us because of his choice. God's grace is because God has decided not for anything that we have done. And you tell me, where else in your life do you live with any rules like that? Everything else is pretty much performance based or based upon something you do or don't do. So if you live in that kind of world today, then at some point you start applying those same types of principles to God.
Speaker 2:But God, my Bible, doesn't say anything about that. My Bible says that God's grace is available to all and there is nothing we can do to receive it. In fact, we don't deserve it, and yet he affords it to us anyway. I can tell you that that takes some work to get to a point of understanding that and embracing that, because you begin to understand. Like you said, I already know what I've done, I know where I am, I know I may not see myself as worthy, but yet I don't see a whole lot of other people as worthy either. So in fact, there must be more to it than this. There must be where God is giving grace in portions, selectively and it doesn't say that.
Speaker 1:it does not say that, yeah, yeah, as I think about judgment and how binding it can be, right, our ideas about judgment, and as I felt like that's what you just, you know, pointed out, well, if I'm putting ourselves in a hierarchy of who's better, well, that's a pretty strict line. I'm having to walk in Right, and I better not fall back, you know, and even if I'm able to move forward, well, that means someone's fallen back.
Speaker 1:Right you know and and what a. What a binding life to me that that creates um versus an idea of yes, both sides of the scale are there, yeah, both sides are real and present. And um, we're, we're going to look at both sides, but yeah, there's, there's a. There's not a narrow entrance here.
Speaker 1:Come on you know, and how freeing that can be. And really again kind of back to the whole idea of the restrictions and rules being set for community. How does that change my relationship with you? If I don't think I'm having to beat you in the line right, the line that I've created of the hierarchy of our sins? Right. If I'm not having to compare myself to you and your sins or the other people in my life or strangers on the street or random people on my social media feed right. If I'm not having to compare and find myself in the line, well then maybe I could accept that we're all there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's honestly. I think that's what it would do. If you think about it from the standpoint of if everyone looked at it like that, then wouldn't there be more of a desire from people to treat other people the way you want to be treated, to truly do it for goodness sake. I mean not do it for any reason. You're not trying to get brownie points. You're not trying to hide things that you've done. You're not trying to absolve yourself of anything. You're actually doing it because it is what we are compelled and called to do.
Speaker 2:I think one of the most difficult things to actually talk to people about and to get them to accept is that and the fact that you were already created with that in you. The world has actually taught you not to believe that, not to live that way, to look at it from this perspective, because that works better for the world. I don't necessarily think if you really compared a lot of things we do now and say, well, let's just apply straight God principles to it, the first thing you'll figure out that doesn't work, because I can't do that. If I'm actually doing it from the standpoint of how God might do it. I can't do that if it's truly about. You talked earlier about an employee, right? It's almost as if we have created this construct to where, well, if I have to dismiss you, then I don't like you, and then you're mad and you've done bad and this is punishment for what you didn't do, rather than it being something. Maybe there is something better for you, maybe this isn't working for you, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:And it's certainly not from a standpoint of how I still don't love you and maybe loving you is giving you an opportunity to do something different or whatever. That's hard for people to look at because of how we have been treated by other people. I know you get this. We get treated by other people in bad ways, typically because they've been treated badly. Come on, and that's what they understand, so that you get to learn that this is how you do it or whatever.
Speaker 2:And I'm like saying if we would just understand Jesus has a better way and that's what we want to embrace. And even when you try to live that way, maybe that's where those scales come in, like I'm really trying to live good over here and I'm still fighting all this over here, or whatever. And I'm going to say stay in the fight, keep fighting, keep doing it, because you're still doing it for the right reason. And I'm not saying that from a standpoint of, well, this is just going to drop down and it's going to be better, because that's probably not going to happen, but you'll feel better about what you do because you'll know you're doing it for the right reason.
Speaker 2:You know I don't. I do not love Because of the reward I expect in the end. I love because I'm compelled to love you, because Jesus first loved me, and I want to do that because I always feel better. I do not expect a reward. I don't expect an attaboy or a pat on the back. I love because I feel better. When I love from my heart, when I treat people the right way, I feel better. I am actually again. I am blessed because I am a blessing and I think that's where we ought to be going. We could talk about this all day, but I can guarantee you you won't hear anything different from me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love what you said of just staying in the fight and I think that would be my hope for people struggling with judgment. I'm not asking anybody to erase their you know lifetime of understanding of good and bad and results that happen because of that Right, but I would say you know, dig a little deeper into who Jesus really is, who Jesus is truly portrayed to be in the book of Matthew, mark, john and Luke. Read his words, read his interactions and discover for yourself an understanding of what Jesus' judgment looks like here and now, when he walked around on the same earth as you and me and begin to imagine well, what does that look like for me?
Speaker 1:Where do I find myself in those stories? Who can I relate to, even if I'm the crowd holding the stones, or if I am the woman laying there knowing that I've done wrong and yet I'm not alone in my sin, not undeserving of punishment? But wow, here there's an opportunity for some radical grace.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right, Radical grace, radical forgiveness. I think back to the man on the cross next to him, you know, in which Jesus says you're with me.
Speaker 2:You're with me.
Speaker 1:Don't worry about this. I don't, you know, I don't, I don this. You don't have to even tell me what you did.
Speaker 2:Never ask them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're with me and so to me that's my hope. Like you said, I don't think any grand illusions that one conversation is going to change people's minds and I'm not trying to change anybody's minds. I think it would be to push and say what do you really think as you read the life and words of Jesus? Christ as you review how God has judged you right this far. What do you see, and how might that change your daily life going forward?
Speaker 2:You know, what's interesting is that we think, probably because we live in the age we live in, that we think we invented everything. It's kind of funny how you just say you know, how does this approach you, how does this make you feel about Jesus when you read it? And it's kind of funny if we really now think back to scripture. How many times did Jesus actually say who?
Speaker 2:do you say I am, or whatever. What have you figured out from what's going on, what you're actually experiencing, what you're reading right now? What does this say to you, or whatever? And in fact, when I read that now, honestly, I can be sitting in a room with you or with a hundred other people and I read that and I hear Jesus talking exactly directly to me, and not even necessarily to everybody around me. What does this say to you? How do you feel about this? What is this going to make you? Do? We have grown so dependent on and accustomed to the collective?
Speaker 2:now that, in fact, affirmation for us is a great deal of how we live our lives. If I have a feeling about something social media obviously drives a lot of this If I get a like or two, or if someone actually gives me a thumbs up or a check mark or I get a pat on the back, then it actually makes what I'm saying to be real and it makes it accurate and it makes it the truth and I think Jesus will from reading the red letters you'll find that.
Speaker 2:Jesus said. That doesn't make it true at all. I said but if you really want the truth, keep reading Right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Any final words of encouragement for those battling or dealing with judgment today, especially as we enter into this, as we're in the middle of Holy Week and awaiting the great celebration of resurrection.
Speaker 2:Holy Week was, and is probably one of the greatest examples of our ability to truly be judgmental. It was all about people judging who Jesus was. Remember that he went in there on Palm Sunday with people had one perspective about him. It didn't really last that long In fact it may not have even made it until Monday but and then from that point on, that whole week was about people judging Jesus, and at the end he said let me take this upon me so that you don't have to worry about this anymore. So that is pretty much my message to anyone. If you're really concerned about judgment, or being judgmental or people being judgmental or even final judgment, or whatever my word would be.
Speaker 2:Let Jesus worry about that. Let him deal with that. You deal with the things that he has truly taught us to do and how he has taught us to be and let him worry about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that would be my offer would be to receive the resurrection. Yes, receive the new life.
Speaker 2:Let Sunday be more about eggs and bunnies and chocolate.
Speaker 1:Let Sunday be more about eggs and bunnies and chocolate and really you know, pray and discern and welcome in a new life that Jesus Christ has for you, because the resurrection isn't reserved. It's for all those who are willing to live new.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen and amen. Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thea and thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Real Talk. We really appreciate your likes and subscribe, so be sure to follow and share with a friend who might be interested in a real conversation about faith and doubt too. I also want to invite you to our podcast on the patio, a live event we'll be hosting right here in Pearland on Thursday, april 25th at Grace Pizza, 6 to 8 pm. It's going to be a fun evening with some music, a live panel, a real conversation about faith, as well as an opportunity for you, the audience, to text in your questions and we'll answer those too. So I hope you'll save that date and plan to join us, and until then, we'll see you on the next time of Real Talk. Real Talk Podcast is produced by First United Methodist Church Pearland in collaboration with Pearland Podcast Studios, recorded here in Pearland, texas. We invite you to check out our website at fumcpearlandorg to check out additional events and opportunities for you to engage in real talk about faith and relationships.